Keith Gooden
Welcome back to the Motorhome Matt podcast. I’m Keith Gooden.
Matt Sims
And I’m Motorhome Matt.
Keith Gooden
And this whole shebang, the whole thing, the podcast in its entirety is brought to you thanks to our friends at www.thatleisureshop.com.
Matt Sims
How are you doing, anyway?
Keith Gooden
I’m doing fine. And how are you feeling?
Matt Sims
Very recharged.
Keith Gooden
Oh yeah, I’m feeling full of juice as well.
Matt Sims
You’re full of something.
Keith Gooden
Today we’re talking about lithium batteries. What are they, and why do you need one?
Matt Sims
Yes, it’s the big question, isn’t it? Is it just a case of keeping up with the Joneses? Is it something you need to have? Do you have to have one?
What is a lithium battery?
Keith Gooden
I feel electricity in the air. We’re going to dive straight in. No news, no nothing. This is power – a big subject. So firstly, Matt, what is a lithium battery?
Matt Sims
Well, is it lithium-ion or is it lithium iron?
Keith Gooden
Is it ion or iron?
Matt Sims
So lithium iron… Proper! That’s a pirate battery. So a lithium iron battery is actually a type of lithium-ion battery. So in a mobile phone… you always tell me off for saying my iPhone. There are other types of other mobile phones. They contain a lithium-ion battery, whereas a larger battery like we use in a motorhome or caravan, as we’re going to talk about today, is a lithium iron battery. Lithium ferrophosphate. They’re called LFP batteries, and that’s why they’re called that.
Keith Gooden
The chemical name for that you know is LiFe PO 4. I’ve got that written down.
Matt Sims
That’s what it says here. Lithium ferrophosphate. There we are.
Keith Gooden
Now we’ve told people that, why should they care?
Matt Sims
Well, they’ve become certainly very commonplace in motorhomes and caravans where you have inverters that mean you can use mains powered appliances when you’re on the move.
Keith Gooden
So what’s an inverter again?
Matt Sims
So that converts the 12 volt, the battery, up to 240 volt or 110 volt if you’re in the US or somewhere else where 110 volts is the norm. And it basically steps up the voltage so you can use that laptop power supply or hairdryer. I’ve seen you’re a keen user of a hairdryer.
Keith Gooden
It blew it right off. I use it. I’m going to mention it again. My solar panels at home!
Matt Sims
Oh, here we go.
Keith Gooden
I’ve got an inverter in the garage and it inverts the 4,000 watts that are generated on a sunny day to 240 volts AC that the house can use.
Matt Sims
Yes, absolutely. That’s what an inverter will do. It converts power from one state to another, from one level to another.
Keith Gooden
DC to AC.
Matt Sims
It will do that as well. It’s exactly what the inverter is designed to do, yes. Now, of course, if you put an inverter on a lead acid battery, which is known as a wet battery-, so we’ve had those in caravans motorhome for years. So a normal wet lead acid in a caravan…
Keith Gooden
So that’s like the battery in your car.
Matt Sims
That’s a different type of battery. That’s a starter battery. So a starter battery is designed for a huge amount of charge in a very short space of time to start the engine. A leisure battery is designed for a gradual drain over time, so it’s a different type of battery. And there are various types of general wet lead acid, EFB and AGM. We’ll talk about those in another episode.
But the big difference with a lithium iron is that it’s a totally different technology. They weigh a lot less than a lead acid battery. They’re a lot more expensive. They don’t require any maintenance, and they have a much longer lifespan. So a lithium iron battery will probably outlive the time you own the motorhome, so it will probably last you 20 years plus. It will have a much greater level of recharge and cycle rate, so it will go flat 20,000 times and you can recharge it before it’s a problem.
With a traditional lead acid battery, if you let it go flat below 12 volts, your battery’s had it and you’re probably going to have to replace it. So sometimes they only last, well, months sometimes, but usually a battery has a warranty of about two years. That’s a typical lifespan of a lead acid battery.
Keith Gooden
So lithium iron batteries last longer. They’ve got more recharge cycles on them and they’re newer technology. I’m going to mention my solar panels at home one more time. I have two lithium iron batteries which store electricity that we don’t use during the day, and then discharges it for use in the evening when the sun has gone down. They’re guaranteed for 10 years. As you say, with standard batteries, lead acid batteries, they run out of puff after a very short amount of time.
Matt Sims
And the big difference is that the drain curve is a very different shape. On a lead acid battery it’s a diagonal shape down. And it will go down from 12.7 volts, which is fully charged, down to two 12 volts, and then below. And really, once it gets below 12 volts, it’s flat, okay. 12 volts is it. And if it gets below eight volts, it’s going to be very hard to bring back.
A lithium iron battery drain curve is pretty flat and very constant and then suddenly will drop. And that’s the difference. And you can run a lithium down to six volts, and it will recover very easily. The other big difference is the recharge rate. So you can recharge a lithium iron battery very quickly at a very high rate, whereas with a lead acid it’s a much slower recharge.
What are the down-sides of a lithium leisure battery?
Keith Gooden
Very much 21st century technology. But why the hell do I need one?
Matt Sims
Well, that’s the question. So people think, “Well, I need to get one because it’s the latest technology.” Do you really? There are a number of downsides to lithium. I’ve mentioned the costs. And they’re a big investment. The batteries themselves are about £700. It used to be the case, and it’s changing now – in the last few weeks, there’s been some advances in the technology – where the batteries just wouldn’t recharge at very low temperatures.
So we’ve had snow, as we’ve been recording this recently. At zero degrees, the batteries just won’t recharge. That’s changing. Technology is improving. And you have to have the correct charging system as well. So can you just swap one out for your lead acid for lithium? Possibly, but you need to make sure that the charging system is correct.
Now, the way lithium iron works is that a battery of 12 volt battery is actually made up of four cells, and each of them are 3.2 volts. So this is the case for your solar system at home. You join four of them together in series, so they’re added together, and you end up with a 12.8 volt output. That’s how a lithium iron battery works. The recharge voltage must be between 14 volts and 14.6 volts. If it’s any different you could damage the battery, and you could easily overcharge it, and you could damage the system that’s utilising it as well.
Electric cars, most of them, are using lithium iron technology because of the weight and because of their reliability. Although that said, we had a car crash outside of work recently and it was an electric BMW. And it was just incredible what the fire brigade had to go through because of the risk of the battery overheating. This car had been clipped on the back end. There was no damage to the car at all, really.
But because it was all electric, the protocol the fire brigade had to go through – we talked about this before, didn’t we – was just incredible. Lithium can react very violently with moisture, water or steam. And it can produce heat, and it’s flammable. And it produces a very explosive hydrogen gas and toxic lithium hydroxide.
Keith Gooden
So what about China? Let’s face it, they have been pushing and pulling on the international stage. And that’s where all the lithium comes from, isn’t it?
Matt Sims
Well, a lot of lithium does come from China, and they are way ahead in terms of the production of it. But did you know where most of the reserves of lithium in the world is? Chile!
Keith Gooden
No, I didn’t know that.
Matt Sims
There we are, you see? They’ve got 8 million tonnes. China has about 1 million. And in fact, after Chile is Australia with 2.7 million tonnes and then Argentina with 2 million tonnes. So China are not the most affluent with lithium at all.
Keith Gooden
No! Not easy to say. But they’re the ones getting it out of the ground.
Matt Sims
They are, and that’s the point. They’ve got ahead quickly with it, whereas the other countries have not really had to, but they are starting to. So I think we’ll see a shift of where lithium is coming from. And there is a sense of nervousness, isn’t there, for many. Well, it all comes from China. Do we want to give more control to China? I don’t think we will.
Keith Gooden
But the thing is, whenever you’re mining these raw materials out of the earth, a lot of people do care now about the environment and about the way we treat the earth, don’t they? And mining is never pretty.
Matt Sims
No. And it’s not harmless to the environment at all. That’s fair. It’s way less harmful than mining fossil fuel, certainly. It does pollute water, because when you’re mining you need to use a lot of water. And so that’s a side effect of this. And any mining, as you say, is going to impact the environment as we do consuming any type of power.
Keith Gooden
So given all that, taking all that into consideration, why do I need one?
Matt Sims
Well, your neighbor’s got one.
Keith Gooden
Is that a good reason?
Matt Sims
The Joneses up the road have got one in their motorhome. I’m sure that’s a reason to have one. The reason people have them – I think there is an element of, “Well, I must have it. It’s the latest thing.” If you’re using a laptop on your travels, that’s a really good reason to have one. I love coffee, and that’s a great reason to have one. It means you can power your coffee machine. And you can power all of your 240 volt appliances off the battery really easily.
So that’s a great reason to have one. But actually, we visited our friends at Bristol Caravans and I spoke to Oakleigh. They won best workshop in the UK under the NCC Approved Workshops Scheme. And I gave Oakleigh a real world example.
When might a lithium battery be worthwhile in a motorhome?
Matt Sims
I’m going to a campsite. I arrive with the kids. We’ve driven for an hour, we hook up and we stay on the campsite for 24 hours. We unplug, we go for a drive and go home. I can hook up on the drive at home and I can recharge the van at home. Why do I need a lithium iron battery?
Oakleigh Wood
You don’t. Let’s forget this. Let’s go and talk about something else. No, seriously, why would you?
Matt Sims
Is it the case that I don’t need one because I’m constantly recharging it with the engine and the hookup and I’m not spending any great amount of time off grid?
Oakleigh Wood
If you’re hooked up, I would question why you would be going down this route.
Matt Sims
What if I go away and I’m away on a campsite, but there is no hookup and I’m there for a couple of days. I’m off grid. But I’m not a digital nomad. I’ve left the laptop at home. I’m not allowed to take it away on holiday, she’ll tell me off. But I’ve got the lights on. I’m running the water pump, I’ve got the heating on in my caravan. Do I need a lithium battery?
Oakleigh Wood
Hesitation. It would really depend on how much electricity you’re using while you’re away and what you’re using. If you’re going to be using a hairdryer and things of that nature, so again, they’re not a heavy use laptop, but they are everyday items, then in that case, you will probably be wanting to fit an inverter.
And if you’re fitting the inverter, an inverter is really well aligned to a lithium battery because you’re going to get that supply of power all the way through. That lithium battery can give you a very high amps output that will feed that inverter, and therefore you’re going to get all of the facilities you want when you’re off grid.
Matt Sims
So the answer then is, if I want to be able to use appliances while I’m off grid, so I go to a campsite and there are no hookups left but I want to use the hairdryer and I want to watch the TV, I want to use those three pin plugs, I can use an inverter on a lithium iron. If I do that on an AGM or EFB, a traditional leisure battery, that’s going to drain it and flatten it pretty quickly, isn’t it? So this is where lithium iron comes into its own, is that right?
Oakleigh Wood
It is. That’s a good summary.
What do you need to consider before installing a lithium leisure battery?
Matt Sims
Brilliant, right. So we think that’s an option for us. What do I need to consider, then? So I’ve got a four-year-old Adria Twin, our motorhome. And it’s a van conversion, for those that don’t know. Can I just take the battery out and put new lithium iron in, spend £760 with you and bosh it straight in the hole?
Oakleigh Wood
For an Adria Twin it’s going to be a challenge because you’re now talking about space and where you’re going to put it. We’d have to see if there’s enough space under the driver’s seat on a Twin to fit that lithium battery. If there is, then potentially yes. But I say potentially because you really need to understand and do some research. What’s in the vehicle? And will it work with the lithium?
So is the 230 volt mains charger that has been fitted by, in this case Adria, got a function to work with lithium? And that would be the same process of thought on whatever the brand is. You need to get the manual out and read the manual. Is there lithium functionality within the vehicle? If there is, great. Then it could be as simple as fitting a battery. But if there’s not, then I think you’d need to work through what the system is that you want to produce.
Matt Sims
Yes. So for the layman watching this or listening to this, what we’re saying is you need to get the manual for your control unit, the charging unit that’s been installed by the leisure vehicle manufacturer. This is the important bit, isn’t it? Either go and dig it out of that bag that you never look in that came with the vehicle or go online and find it, and do your research and find the tech spec of that charger. Even then, give it to the expert installer to make the real decision as to whether it’s compatible. Can you do damage to a charger if you don’t do this and just fit a lithium iron and plug it in and see what happens?
Oakleigh Wood
You can damage the system. The system could be damaged. Which component I can’t say, because there are so many different systems. You could damage the lithium battery. You could damage the control system. Yes, there could be damage.
Keith Gooden
That’s Oakleigh from Bristol Caravans. You talked to him just a little while back about this whole battery thing. I’m getting a bit confused by it, but we can straighten it out a little bit later on, Matt, don’t worry, because I want a new lithium iron battery because my neighbour’s got one. Tell me, what is a BMS?
Matt Sims
It is a battery management system. So a lithium iron battery looks very different to the normal lead acid leisure battery that you’ve seen in a motorhome or caravan. It’s got lights on the top. It’s actually got a Bluetooth transmitter on it. So you can send the information of what’s going on in that battery to your phone and download an app and monitor what’s going on that battery. You can turn the battery on and off. The connections on the top are very different as well. So they are an entirely different technology to the lead acid type the way we’re used to seeing.
What are the costs of a lithium leisure battery?
Keith Gooden
So what does this technology cost me? What does a lithium iron battery cost?
Matt Sims
Well, as you heard there, it’s £700 or £800 for the battery, and no doubt prices will come down. I’m sure they will. That’s versus the £100 to £200 for a normal leisure battery. But I asked Oakleigh about the other costs associated with installation.
If I turn up to you and I want a solar panel, a solar controller that’s lithium iron compatible and I need a new charger because my caravan is not compatible, I need a B2B charger so I can charge it when I’m driving, I want an inverter so I can run my computer, what is this all gonna cost? Typically, what kind of budget do people need to consider? I know there are so many variables. But you’ve already said the batteries themselves are £700 plus. What about everything else?
Oakleigh Wood
Today, in February 2023, we’re probably in the region of £6,500. And that’s variable, but that will give you a feel for budget if you need everything. You might not need everything. You might not need all of the items. But yes, that’s a ballpark figure.
Matt Sims
So I’ve got a flat lead acid battery, £6,500 to go lithium iron, or £150 for a new lead acid battery. That’s a big difference, isn’t it?
Oakleigh Wood
It’s huge. The question is, what do you want to do with your vehicle? What’s your plan for using your vehicle going forward? How long are you going to keep your vehicle?
Matt Sims
Well, if I’m only keeping it for a year, because that new one is delayed again so I’ve bought a secondhand one and I want to put this in it, can I take it out?
Oakleigh Wood
Absolutely. So our approach is that we fit aftermarket items, after the manufacturer has built the vehicle, but we fit them in a way that you can then take them out again and then put it back as spec by the vehicle manufacturer.
Matt Sims
Right, so it’s all transferrable to my new vehicle.
Oakleigh Wood
Yes, absolutely.
Matt Sims
And do you think we’re going to see manufacturers fitting lithium systems like this in the factory from new?
Oakleigh Wood
I don’t know. Some of the manufacturers are already fitting battery chargers that are compatible with lithium iron, so they’re halfway there. The spec that I’m seeing is quite a low spec, so this mains charger could be 20 amps. It could be 80 amps. The difference in price is from £260 to £1,000. It will depend on if the customer is willing to pay for that level of upgrade at that purchase point if it’s an option, or if the dealer has got the skill inhouse to do that for them.
Matt Sims
I think part of the problem is the consumers’ understanding of what this technology is and why you need it and when you don’t need it. As we say, 90% of people don’t need it, do they?
Oakleigh Wood
No. As we’ve said earlier, if you don’t need it, why spend your money on this? You could have something else that might be more fun for your vehicle. And you can have adventures in a different way.
Matt Sims
Yes, quite. Now, you’ve kindly brought a vehicle back into the workshop, which you’ve been busy working on. And you’ve installed a whole system like this. And you’ve said we can go and have a look at it. Can we do that?
Oakleigh Wood
Yes, please do. Come on.
Keith Gooden
So that’s Oakleigh at Bristol Caravans again. So, Matt, what are the main takeaways from this?
Matt Sims
The interesting bit is that you start to become very aware of what power you’re using. We happily just plug in, don’t we, to the mains in a motorhome cabin. We hook up and we’ve got electricity. We don’t give it any thought at all. But when you’re running off a battery, you can monitor, with a lithium iron system certainly, how long you’ve got left. And I think it starts to focus the mind on how much power we’re consuming and how much power we’ve got left, which has to be a good thing, surely.
Keith Gooden
Yes. And also with the new lithium iron technology, it frees you a little bit, doesn’t it? You are much more independent when it comes to power.
Matt Sims
We use the phrase digital nomad. So increasingly, people want to be mobile working in a van in a remote location and not hooked up to the grid. And you can be off grid on a lithium iron battery. That does give you a sense of freedom. The other thing is the focus on solar. Now, you’re passionate about your solar panels. Solar is undoubtedly, I think, part of the future of this in terms of recharging the batteries and keeping them topped up. Solar is going to be a very important factor because after all, a wind turbine on your roof would look daft.
Keith Gooden
So what’s the future?
Matt Sims
I think solar is going to play a big part in partnership with lithium iron. The price is undoubtedly going to come down. And Oakleigh had this to add as well.
Oakleigh Wood
We’re on a journey. This is where we are at the moment. But I agree, I think in the long term we’re going to be seeing more solar, however that looks, and then that will be recharging your batteries so you can live off grid.
Do you need lithium iron in your motorhome?
Matt Sims
So there we are, really. The question is, do you need one? I think that’s a really important question to start with.
Keith Gooden
Well, that’s the thing, isn’t it? Because it’s the old thing between practicality and desire. Do you need one? Or do you want one?
Matt Sims
Well, that’s it. Is keeping up with the Joneses, isn’t it? And there are some really sensible questions to ask about how you’re going to use this vehicle. There is a case to say it’s incredibly-, it’s a large investment. I was going to say expensive. It’s a big investment to shell out to install a lithium iron system with a solar panel and a shunt and a monitor and all the kit and kaboodle that goes with it. It’s a big consideration.
But of course, you can take it off and take it with you, and it’s going last 20 years until the technology obviously moves up again. It’s a big consideration. If you think, “I’m going to do this for a long time and I want to be off grid. I want to use my laptop,” because laptops consume such a lot of power, “And I want to use the hairdryer or the coffee machine,” or whatever the gadget is, then it might be something that you could consider investing in.
Keith Gooden
And if you do keep it in the motorhome, is it going to get you a return on your resale?
Matt Sims
I think it will do, yes. You’ll never get your money back, I wouldn’t have thought. Accessories like this make the motorhome or caravan more desirable than the next one, but I think most people would just uninstall it and take it off and put it on the next one. I think if you’ve committed to using it because that’s a lifestyle you have, you’ll want to take it with you rather than buy new.
Keith Gooden
So there you are. We hope that we have enlightened you somewhat about lithium iron batteries. You heard the costs there. You’ve just got to decide whether your way of motorhoming or caravanning is the way to go when you’re using the batteries. Are you going to stick with the old technology or go with the new technology? What do you want to do? Independence is the big one. But cost – well, it did seem rather pricey.
Matt Sims
It is, but go and check out the YouTube channel where you can see the whole episode with Oakleigh where we actually look at an installation and his demo unit in their reception area which does explain it very visually. And it’s fascinating to see how they’ve installed it. A huge amount of work goes into installing this, and it’s definitely worth going and checking that out if you want to deep dive on this a bit more.
Audience Q&A
Julie: “Can you give a view on new campervans with LPG tanks?”
Keith Gooden
Okay then, let’s get into our audience Q&A. I love this bit where we get to talk to you. Julie Needham got in touch.
Julie
Hello, Matt. We were at the NEC yesterday, and I was just about to buy a Warwick Duo but we discovered that it has LPG tanks that are underneath. We did a little a bit of investigating because we didn’t know anything about this to discover that there might be a problem with filling these tanks in the future. I just wanted to know what your view was.
Matt Sims
So this brand new motorhome has got LPG tanks installed instead of refillable gas bottles like Calor bottles. That’s what’s happened. And this is quite common on this particular range of campervan or van conversion. Julie’s right to have a concern about the refill points, because Autogas points are slowly disappearing in the UK. Fuel stations are no longer really using them. The days of converting a big V8 petrol car to gas have gone, haven’t they? People aren’t running their cars on gas like they used to.
So they are decreasing in number, that’s true. However, a number of motorhome businesses are responding to this and are installing gas refill points. I would suggest a good idea would be to download the app from www.mylpg.eu. That’s the website to go to to get it. It is on the App Store as well and on Google Play. Install that on your phone or go on your computer and you’ll find all the dispensing points close to you across Europe.
I checked it recently and there are a number of close to here and they’re all on there. As they open or close, this is updated so it’s a really handy resource to find where you can refill and perhaps do that before you make the purchase. Uninstalling that and changing it is going to be very, very difficult because there’s no probably no provision on the van for a removable gas bottle like you would normally see to get a Calor bottle, for example.
Keith Gooden
Okay, Julie. Well, thanks for that. I hope Matt helped you with that one.
Jay: “How can we avoid condensation?”
Keith Gooden
Jay is in Bournemouth and says, “Hello. We rented a motorhome last year. It slept six. We wild parked overnight and the next day we open the internal windscreen blinds expecting to have a stunning view of Luskentyre beach, but instead there was just heavy condensation. How can this be avoided, please?” I mean, it is six people in a very small space.
Matt Sims
Well, that’s part of the problem. It’s incredible how much water we generate when we breathe. Is it 20 litres an hour or something? It’s incredible. And that is part of the issue you had. So ventilation is going to help. Depending on the time of year, that may or may not be possible. The silver screens that go on the inside and the outside of the motorhome are also really going to help.
I’m guessing the window they refer to is the windscreen, which is the coldest part of any motorhome. So you’ve got all this warmth and moisture inside hitting the cold surface of the windscreen. It generates condensation. And so that’s why.
Keith Gooden
Are there any little vents that can be opened or closed?
Matt Sims
Opening the vents in the cab will help. Opening a rooflight, opening a side window, crack it open and lock it closed so it can’t be opened.
Keith Gooden
Literally half a centimetre.
Matt Sims
Yes, just crack them open onto the vent position and it will just allow the vehicle to breathe. In winter, having the heating on as well generates even more condensation. So it’s a really common problem. And you end up spending the first 10 minutes of any morning wiping the windscreen down with a towel or using one of those cleaners, one of those little Karcher sucker things, a window cleaner that sucks the water off the windscreen.
Keith Gooden
Other manufacturers also make them…
Matt Sims
Well, I use a Karcher! I haven’t seen any of them. I’m sure they do exist.
Keith Gooden
They do. They absolutely do exist. And not to mention the amount of carbon dioxide you’re rebreathing with six people in that small area.
Matt Sims
Well, that’s it. So yes, ventilating it is really key. The silver screens help insulate the windscreen and keep it away from the cold, as it were. And that really does help minimise the condensation on the windscreen.
Keith Gooden
Fantastic. Now, this episode has been quite technical with a lot of information. And we can’t put everything in the audio podcast, so what we’ve done for you is we’ve put that interview with Oakley from Bristol Caravans on YouTube and you can see the whole thing. And as Matt said earlier, he takes a tour around an installation. So if you’re weighing up whether you do or you don’t want an lithium iron in your motorhome or caravan, give that a view.
The Motorhome Holiday Company’s open day on 25th March
Keith Gooden
So big news, you’re having an open day, aren’t you, Matt?
Matt Sims
We are, on Saturday the 25th of March. We’ve got a whole range of motorhomes that you can hire on display. They’ll all be laid out for you to come and explore. So if you’ve never done a motorhome holiday before, it’s a brilliant way of discovering this pastime. If you’re thinking of trying before you buy, it’s a great way of doing that.
Come and have a look at different layouts. Come and talk to the team. Find out what’s included and what you need to pack. We get lots and lots of questions from people who’ve never done a motorhome holiday before and for people who’ve been on one but want to do it again. So come on down. It’s completely free. It’s a brilliant, brilliant way to spend a Saturday.
Keith Gooden
And so that Saturday date again is…
Matt Sims
Saturday the 25th of March. We’re open at 10:00 and we’ll be here till 4:00.
Keith Gooden
And what should people stab into their sat nav?
Matt Sims
Easy! Motorhome Holiday Company, BS24 6RT. We’re just off junction 21 of the M5 for Weston-super-Mare.
Keep in touch with Matt and Keith
Matt Sims
You can go to the website, www.motorhomematt.co.uk, and if you’ve got a question, you can ask. Just add /askmatt. Record your question with the orange button or fill out the form. If you do record it, tell us where you are in the country. We love to hear your voice and we love to know where you are.
Keith Gooden
We do.
Matt Sims
And if you’re listening on Apple or Spotify, if you can, leave us a five star review. It really helps spread the word about the podcast and it makes Keith feel all warm and fuzzy.
