Matt Sims
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Motorhome Matt podcast. I am Motorhome Matt and this is…
Keith Gooden
Keith Gooden. I ask the stupid questions. Welcome along. Today’s episode is about leisure batteries, but as usual, before we get to the meat, we get into the news. So first of all, it’s the Peterborough show this weekend.
The National Motorhome and Campervan Show 2023
Matt Sims
It is. We are heading north to Peterborough with That Leisure Shop. The whole team are going, so we’ve got Mandy, Andy, Darren and Jude.
Keith Gooden
Mandy, Andy, Darren and Jude.
Matt Sims
It is the cast of the children’s TV show, yeah.
Keith Gooden
It’s like Kill Bill, isn’t it?
Matt Sims
We’re going with a range of products – lovely tables and chairs from Crespo and Bo-Camp. I don’t know if you’ve seen them. They’re beautiful. Very light. They pack very flat. So they’ll have a whole range of tables, chairs and accessories. We’ve got windbreak products from Seago. So you can get yourself a kayak or paddle board, and we’ve got welly boots from LBC, the lightest wellies you will ever wear.
Keith Gooden
Fantastic. And remember, weight is everything in a motorhome or caravan or a van. Any discounts to be had?
Matt Sims
Always! Yes, there is, actually. There is. Yes, our online discount’s being applied at the show. £10 off everything minimum. Some things are 30% off, so go and have a look.
Keith Gooden
Fantastic. This podcast, by the way, is brought to you with www.thatleisureshop.com. Get on the website and find the bargains now!
Matt Sims
Indeed. And if you’ve not got tickets for the Peterborough show, you can go to www.showgoer.co.uk. And if you use the code MOTORHOMEMATT, then you will get a few pounds off.
Keith Gooden
Okay, it is the Motorhome Matt Podcast. I’m Keith Gooden.
Matt Sims
And I’m Motorhome Matt.
Keith Gooden
Brought to you with www.thatleisureshop.com. Let’s talk about leisure batteries, shall we? We’ve been talking about batteries a lot recently, haven’t we?
Matt Sims
We have. We had a whole episode on lithium, which is the big must have – or is it? So we did a whole podcast on this and then a deep dive on YouTube. So if you really want to know about lithium batteries, then go and listen to the lithium episode and you can watch the whole thing. It’s an interview with Bristol Caravans and the lovely Oakleigh Wood, and they unpack a lot more about lithium batteries with me.
Keith Gooden
Oakleigh Wood, by the way, is a person and not a place.
Matt Sims
It does sound like a place, doesn’t it? I’m sure it would be a very nice place. If Oakleigh had anything to do with it, it’d be lovely.
Keith Gooden
You’ve been talking to your mates as well at BBL batteries.
Matt Sims
We have. So Bristol Batteries Limited, that’s what it stands for, are local to us. And they’re at all the national shows. They’re a big company and a great business as well, a family business. And they are battery specialists. And I spoke to the branch manager in Bristol, Glyn. And we were talking about the different types of batteries.
Now, we focused a lot on lithium recently. But people said, “You know Matt, you talk about wet batteries, lead acid batteries, but there are lots of different types.” And it’s about the best battery for your application. Now, a lithium installation is not cheap.
Keith Gooden
As we discussed as a few podcasts ago.
Matt Sims
As we discovered. Yes, quite. So there are different types of lead acid battery, but which one is best? So I thought right, let’s go and get Glyn’s view on this, and we can discuss traditional lead acid, EFB, AGM, gel. And I asked Glyn to explain more about each of them.
Different types of leisure batteries with BBL Batteries
Matt Sims
So starter batteries are the ones that start the engine. And the Fiat Ducato is called an 019.
Glyn Chapman
Correct.
Wet lead acid leisure batteries
Matt Sims
Wet lead acid batteries, this is a what we call a basic leisure battery.
Glyn Chapman
A basic leisure battery, yeah. The difference between leisure batteries and starter batteries when they’re wet lead acid is the lead plates are a bit thicker and they withstand a deeper depth of discharge.
Matt Sims
If you’re hooking up all the time, that’s going to be fine because it’s constantly going to be getting a charge, isn’t it?
Glyn Chapman
It’s constantly getting a charge, and that’s what a lot of vans come out with now. They put on a normal wet lead acid, and it’s been around for years. This chemistry has been around for years and years and years.
Matt Sims
And that’s what we’re talking about, isn’t it, battery chemistry.
EFB lead acid leisure batteries
Matt Sims
So next up we’ve got then the different types – these are still lead acid. Next up is EFB.
Glyn Chapman
Enhanced flooded. That’s what this one stands for. So the Caravan Owners Club very kindly rated all these. So the wet lead acid is rated a C, as owners will know. The enhanced flooded is rated as a B. Okay, and that’s a enhancement on that one. They’ve just made it a bit better – it cycles more times. So a cycle’s a charge and a discharge.
AGM lead acid leisure batteries
Matt Sims
Okay, got it. Next up, we’ve got AGM. We’re still a lead acid battery, aren’t we?
Glyn Chapman
Still a wet lead acid battery.
Matt Sims
Absorbent glass matting?
Glyn Chapman
Oh, see! You’ve got the job. Definitely. So instead of being a fluid, the acid is held in suspension in a mat against the plate. This allows for more cycles again. So this is your premium A rated one.
Matt Sims
So we’ve gone from crap to better to ace?
Glyn Chapman
I wouldn’t say crap. But yes! It’s all about how much you want to spend.
Matt Sims
Absolutely. Now, the difference with an AGM is it can be inside the motorhome, can’t it? So that’s a consideration. And for an EFB as well?
Glyn Chapman
An EFB still will vent, but with a lot of motorhomes, as long as you put a vent tube on a wet lead acid or EFB, you can vent it to the outside. It’s absolutely fine. And it’s only if there’s a problem with the charging system itself.
Matt Sims
So the battery, we often say, drops a cell. You get that awful eggy smell.
Glyn Chapman
Oh, yes, we all love that smell.
Matt Sims
Real sulphur. And it will set your CO alarm off, won’t it?
Glyn Chapman
It will do, yes.
Lithium leisure batteries
Matt Sims
Okay, brilliant. So that’s our lead acid range. And then we come to lithium, which is behind you. So this is a lithium iron battery, iron with an R. They’re light.
Glyn Chapman
Let’s do a weight test for you, shall we?
Matt Sims
Go on, then.
Glyn Chapman
So that’s your lead acid.
Matt Sims
That’s quite heavy.
Glyn Chapman
Quite heavy, and that’s only 100 amps. That’s a 120 lithium.
Matt Sims
It’s a quarter of the weight, must be.
Glyn Chapman
It’s about half.
Matt Sims
Half the weight. Much lighter.
Glyn Chapman
Lithium is going to cycle far more times. So a cycle for a wet lead acid, you’ll get 250, which is a charge and discharge. Lithium, you can get up to 5,000, as long as you don’t work it really hard.
Matt Sims
They are a lot more expensive, aren’t they?
Glyn Chapman
A lot more expensive. But don’t forget, you’re getting the benefit of the amount of power you can pull out of it before it’s flat. A wet lead acid, a 100 amp battery, you can only get 50 amps before it’s completely flat. From a lithium 100 amp, you can get 90 amps out before it’s flat. So you’re already gaining – same size case, but you’ve got 40 amps more you can use before you flatten the thing before any charge goes.
Matt Sims
And they charge at a much higher rate from the alternator, as well.
Glyn Chapman
They’ve got the ability to charge at a very high rate so they can charge up a lot faster. About 80 amps an hour?
Matt Sims
About 80 amps an hour?
Glyn Chapman
Absolutely. No problem whatsoever.
Matt Sims
So if you’ve got a 100 amp hour lithium battery, and you’ve basically flattened it, you’ve used 90 amps. In an hour of driving it’s almost recharged, isn’t it?
Glyn Chapman
Yes. They are superb. Yes, they’re more expensive, but it’s all about how quickly you want to be able to recharge it. Have you got to lift it out? Have you got to move it around? There are so many benefits to our lithium range. And with our range, you don’t have to change the charging system. With some, you do.
Installing a lithium leisure battery
Matt Sims
Steve from Loughborough has just been on our stand here at the Birmingham show. And he asked, “Can I replace my lead acid AGM battery with a lithium battery?” Just a direct replacement. Can he?
Glyn Chapman
You can with ours, yes. Obviously, if you’re just replacing a 100 amp with another 100 amp, absolutely fine. If you’ve got a selectable charging regime on your panel in your campervan or whatever, ideally put it to gel. But you don’t have to with ours, our BMS that we have put inside our batteries will allow for exactly the charging regime you’ve got now.
Gel leisure batteries
Matt Sims
Now, you just mentioned gel. They’re behind us. I’m not lifting one of these up. These are incredibly heavy. You apparently still sell loads to them.
Glyn Chapman
We sell a lot of our Avon AGM gel. It’s a heavy duty battery. They are very heavy, but I bet you can lift that one up.
Matt Sims
I’ll try… oh! Yes, there’s nothing in it!t
Glyn Chapman
It’s a dummy! But yes, we have these built as a range, but they are heavy duty cyclic batteries. The beauty of these is with an AGM you can put them on their side because they’re completely sealed. They’ll sit underneath the seat no problem at all.
Matt Sims
And is that the main benefit of a gel battery?
Glyn Chapman
Yes, but it cycles more again so you get more cycle life out there. They are heavy duty hard working cells.
Matt Sims
And cycle life is about how much you’re going to likely use the battery in isolation without charge, isn’t it?
Glyn Chapman
A cycle life is a charge and a discharge. So again, it depends. It comes down to price. These are better than those. Our lithium is better than that.
The costs of different leisure batteries
Matt Sims
So price wise, can I put you to the test? Go on, then, so a basic wet lead acid – typical price?
Glyn Chapman
Well, that one is £100.
Matt Sims
£100.
Glyn Chapman
We’re talking approximately.
Matt Sims
Round numbers. So next up, EFB, typically?
Glyn Chapman
£160. AGM, £220.
Matt Sims
Yes, got it. Gel?
Glyn Chapman
Gel, for 125 amp, you’re looking at about £260.
Matt Sims
Okay, and then go on – lithium?
Glyn Chapman
100 amp lithium on offer at the show – £788.
Matt Sims
Brilliant. So a lot more.
Glyn Chapman
A six-year guarantee, though!
Matt Sims
A six-year guarantee? It’s probably going to outlive the ownership of the van, isn’t it?
Glyn Chapman
Absolutely. As I say, if you sell your van, take it out. Put a cheap one in and take it with you!
Matt Sims
I’m not buying a motorhome off you! Glyn, thanks ever so much. That has actually been really useful. Great to get your expertise. Have a great show, won’t you?
Glyn Chapman
That’s very kind. Great to see you.
Keith Gooden
That was Glyn from BBL batteries. Where did you talk to him?
Matt Sims
We were at the NEC show in February this year, 2023.
Keith Gooden
And it sounded like the pair of you had just lunched on Alphabetti Spaghetti!
Matt Sims
We love an acronym! No, Glyn was really helpful. And they’re definitely worth checking out if you’re looking for a battery supplier.
What type of leisure battery is best?
Keith Gooden
So let’s talk about leisure batteries, then, because there’s a lot of choice as we’ve just heard. There’s a fair bit of technicality. But if you’re just a motorhomer and you just want something which is going to work well for you, what’s your recommendation?
Matt Sims
I would look at an EFB or AGM lead acid battery. So if you’re not off grid – I mean, it’s all about how you’re going to use it. If you’re going to wild camp and you’re a digital nomad, so you’re going off grid, you’re not hooking up for a length of time, and you’re not planning to drive about a lot, because when you do you recharge the battery. If you’re going to be standing still for lengths of time, and you want to run a laptop or hair dryer or hair straighteners or something, then a lithium is going to be the way forward.
Keith Gooden
Hair straighteners?
Matt Sims
I know you like to use yours.
Keith Gooden
How many thousands do you need to spend to use your hair straighteners?
Matt Sims
Jude bought a pair at the Harrogate show we were at recently – 12 volt. Plugged in the cigarette lighter. They were alright.
Keith Gooden
Perfect.
Matt Sims
I said, “They’ll be rubbish,” but they were okay. We were off grid and ran them off the battery. The battery’s now dead. It’s not! We have an AGM battery in our motorhome.
Keith Gooden
What does AGM stand for?
Matt Sims
Absorbent glass matting. Is this a test?
Keith Gooden
No, no!
Matt Sims
So the plates inside – it’s glass matting inside, so they don’t spill. There’s no liquid inside. That’s the key. So they’re safe in an interior space. Whereas lead acid is acid, it’s liquid. If the battery tips over, they should be in a box. This is key. Glyn didn’t mention this. But a lead acid wet battery needs to be in a battery box so it’s protected and if it spills or splits, the lead acid doesn’t go everywhere.
Keith Gooden
Right, so there are these different technologies, which offer different… well, the same thing, really. But you use them in different ways.
Matt Sims
That’s it. It’s all about how you’re going to use it. I would go and listen to the lithium episode, because I start that episode with a real world example to Oakleigh of Bristol Caravans and said, “Should we buy lithium?” And he said, “No. Let’s talk about something else.”
So it really is about how you’re going to use the motorhome or caravan. It is not straightforward. I’m sorry. If you’ve got a question on this, I’d love to help you if I can. You can ask it at www.motorhomematt.co.uk/askmatt. You can record it or just submit it on a form.
Keith Gooden
And if you want to, you can go on to YouTube, can’t you? Motorhome Matt. And you can see that interview, because he shows you a lot of batteries.
Matt Sims
He does, yes, and you can watch me pick up a gel battery that I think is going to be very heavy. And there’s nothing in it. I nearly threw it across the aisle.
Keith Gooden
I bet he has jolly japes all day doing that.
Matt Sims
I’m sure he’s still laughing about it.
Keith Gooden
Anything else you’d like to add about our leisure batteries?
Matt Sims
No, I think that’s good. I mean, the key thing is that if you’ve got a question about it, do ask us. Just go to our Ask Matt page and submit your question. We’d love to try and help you.
Keith Gooden
And it’s not just the podcast – I did mention there’s the YouTube channel as well where you can get totally infoed up with everything to do with motorhomes, caravans and camping. It’s true!
Matt Sims
Hopefully! We’re trying to help.
Audience Q&A
Keith Gooden
It’s the Motorhome Matt podcast. I’m Keith Gooden.
Matt Sims
And I’m Motorhome Matt!
Keith Gooden
Brought to you with www.thatleisureshop.com. Let’s dive into the loveliness of the audience Q&A – my favourite bit of every podcast, this one.
Matt Sims
We love this section, don’t we?
Keith Gooden
I’m on a bit of a downer. I’m sad, because you’ve got a bit of a sad story to tell about theft – thieving!
Matt Sims
Yes, that. So there have been lots of reports and maybe rumours as well, that motorhome and caravan thefts have been on the rise. And obviously, there are many more motorhomes on the roads than there used to be, so I guess if the percentage is the same, the number’s going to go up.
But we’ve been talking to Caravan Guard, and we have a brilliant episode coming up next week on motorhome and caravan security and what you need to know and think about. And for part of that interview I was talking to Jason, who’s a senior member of the policymaking team at the insurer Caravan Guard.
Now, he’s a keen caravanner and told me about a scenario where he parked up in the motorway services with the caravan on the back of the car, and somebody tried to steal it. So Jason, you had first hand experience of this, didn’t you? You were at the services. You went for a coffee. You left your wife in the car but sat in the back. The caravan was hitched onto the car. What happened?
Jason Ware
My son needed the toilet so we pulled in and went inside. It can’t have been more than about 15 minutes. And my wife was sitting in the back because my son likes to sit in the front, as children tend to do. And she noticed there were a couple of individuals around the back of the car looking at the hitch of the caravan, probably to see if it had a hitch lock on and how it was fastened. And as soon as she opened the back door, they scarpered pretty quickly.
Matt Sims
Do you think they were intent on stealing the caravan, then?
Jason Ware
Absolutely. It is something that we do find. Caravans are targeted at motorway services, because that very thing happens. You might just nip inside even for 10 or 15 minutes, and it’s not a requirement of our policy to put security on if it’s still hitched up to the car. Thieves are aware of this, and within a couple of minutes they could take it especially if it’s late at night or it’s a quiet services.
Matt Sims
Now, Caravan Guard do sure the caravan in that scenario, but not all insurers do, do they?
Jason Ware
You certainly have to check the policy wording to see if that would be covered or not. We recognise that yes, you need a break. It’s common sense. We don’t insist on it. But if you are going to be going inside, nipping to the toilet or having a meal, then at least put some security on it just to make sure that nothing does happen. There’s less chance of anything happening if it’s busy, but as I say, if it’s a quiet time, there’s a chance it could be stolen.
Keith Gooden
So that’s Jason from Caravan Guard and his near horror story. I have heard, actually, about caravans being targeted in motorway services. Is the answer simply just to always have somebody stay with it while everybody else does, if you’ll forgive the phrase, their business?
Matt Sims
Yes, quite. I mean, if someone stays in the car or even in the caravan, then you’re protecting the asset, aren’t you? But that’s a real worry, isn’t it? And the fact that if that happened – you imagine coming back from that wee and a coffee and the caravan is gone.
Keith Gooden
It’s just disappeared. But what gets me is that it’s not more difficult to get them off the car or the off the towing vehicle.
Matt Sims
No, it’s dead easy. I mean, there are security features you can fit that lock them on to the car so it can’t be easily removed. But in seconds the caravan’s gone. I know lots of people who actually park up in the services and sleep. You wake up in the morning, the caravan is gone, and then the worst bit is it’s not insured.
So yes, as Jason says, check your policy. But more on that next week, on all the security features that you should consider for your caravan and for your motorhome and the insurer’s perspective on them as well.
Keith Gooden
Be wary. That is the the phrase you need to remember. Don’t assume everybody is as honest as you are.
Steve: “Thank you, Matt!”
Keith Gooden
Steve got in touch from Lincolnshire. He says, “Great to say hi in Birmingham at the NEC. Looking forward to getting the Adria Matrix delivered.”
Matt Sims
Nice.
Keith Gooden
“Your podcast has given me a great deal of confidence in my decision making process. Good information, well delivered. Thank you, Matt.”
Matt Sims
Absolute pleasure, Steve. I assume he means his decision making process about the motorhome!
Keith Gooden
It doesn’t say Keith!
Matt Sims
No, of course it doesn’t.
Keith Gooden
It just says, “Thank you, Matt.”
Matt Sims
I’m sure he’s a big fan of yours as well.
Keith Gooden
Yeah, I’m sure he is… Thanks, Steve.
Gerald: “Auto-Trail Apache 364 payload”
Keith Gooden
Gerald is in High Wycombe. “Hi, Matt. Love your podcast. Really great episode from the recent NEC. We’re looking at purchasing our first motorhome. We particularly like the Auto-Trail Apache 364. The layout and the berth are perfect for us. Looking at reviews, there seems to be, however, a lot of negativity around that particular one, especially re the preload. Can you offer a novice any advice?”
Matt Sims
Well, you’re absolutely right to check the payload, yes. I actually went on to the Auto-Trail website and looked at this particular model of motorhome. You’re quite right, the payload is low. I mean, one of the models is 240 kilos, and one of the models is less than that.
There are models of a party that you can up plate, so make a heavier kerb weight, so you thus increase the payload. My advice would be to really do your research on which model you’re buying and whether you can increase that gross weight. Obviously, be mindful you have to have a C1 licence to drive anything over three and a half tonnes.
We’ve talked about this a lot in the past. And if it’s secondhand – because you haven’t said whether it’s new or secondhand – if it’s secondhand, then there are companies like SvTech who will help you with this up plating process.
Keith Gooden
Right. And just for people who have just tuned in, the payload is the difference between what the motorhome weighs without you and your belongings in it and the amount it weighs once you’ve put all that in. Has it then exceeded the legal limit?
Matt Sims
So there’s a limit as to how much it can weigh, which is on your bonnet slam panel. So lift the bonnet, and underneath there’s a weight, a gross weight that it can weigh. It’s also on the V5, that red and blue document. It’s normally 3,500, and an Apache is 3,260. That’s its kerb weight. And there are other models with greater payloads than that in the Auto-Trail range.
And there are one or two which have a lesser payload, but if you think – I mean, I’m punching 16 stone. That is 100 kilos. That’s half the payload gone. Now, it’s also worth trying to find out if the driver is included in that kerb weight when these figures are published in the brochure. And the only way to know that is to speak to that manufacturer and ask them for a breakdown of what they include in the kerb weight.
Often they’ll include a full tank of diesel, the driver – but how much is allocated to the driver? It might only be 80 kilos. Well, that’s you and me out. We’re both bigger than that. The electric hookup cable, one bottle of gas. Often, these things are included in the kerb weight. So yes, Gerald is quite right to be mindful of this and wary.
And then, of course, you need to work out Gerald, how much do you weigh? Don’t tell us, please! Keep that to yourself. And how much does all your stuff weigh? And are you going to fit into that payload?
Keith Gooden
Right – got you. By the way, have you had a leg amputated?
Matt Sims
Why?
Keith Gooden
Well, you said you weigh 16 stone.
Matt Sims
The cheek! I actually weigh less than 16 stone.
Peter: “Will add-ons boost my campervan’s resale value?”
Keith Gooden
Peter’s in Hereford. “We ordered a new Swift Carrera 184 automatic campervan at the February 2023 NEC for delivery August to October 2023, hopefully. We are adding over the first 12 months of ownership the following…”
Now, he hasn’t got it yet, okay, and this list is long. I’m going to give you the top three things. A completely new 600 watt solar and lithium battery system replacing the factory fitted system, air suspension 5050 off road roadwheels and hydraulic self levelling system, and a reversing camera and additional safety security camera system.
Dashcam, 360 degree surround camera system with an internal camera, and also he’s going to remove the Swift decals while keeping with the pure base vehicle colour. I haven’t included everything that Peter is intending to buy. But Santa is going to be very, very busy this December. “So realistically,” says Peter, “If we decided to sell after four years, would all the add-ons help its value when we come to resell it?”
Matt Sims
Blimey, it depends if you get caught for robbing the bank to pay for that lot! That’s a big list. Are you going to get your money back? No. So in my opinion, and the opinion of any dealer, extras that you add on to the vehicle don’t really improve the value, not by the amount you spent on them. It simply makes it more desirable compared to the one next to it that maybe hasn’t got any of these things on.
You undoubtedly will add some value to it. Usability, yes. So things like the lithium system and the solar. I mean, you could take that off, Peter, and put it on the next one if you wanted to. One of the things you mention here is removing the decals and so you’ve made it a plain white van. I’d say if you’re going to part exchange that vehicle, you’ve probably devalued it by doing that. I’d be really cautious about doing that.
I’m guessing you want to make it more stealth and look less like a motorhome for whatever reason. But I would be very cautious about doing that. I see people replacing decals on motorhomes. You drive into a dealership and the dealer just scratches his head and says, “What on Earth have you done? Why have you done that?”
So I’d be very cautious about doing that. In terms of your question, “Will all the add-ons help its value at point of sale?” Possibly a little bit. But you’re definitely not going to get your money back.
Keith Gooden
What’s this attitude that says, if I spend a lot pimping up my motorhome or my caravan that it’s automatically going to increase its value? You’re using it. These things are secondhand units now, and as you’re saying, okay, it makes it more attractive on resale, but you’re not going to make a profit out of it.
Matt Sims
No, it’s true. And it’s odd, really, because if it hasn’t got it on, and the next buyer wants those things, they’re going have to pay full money for it. So you’d think it would add value, but as I say, it will add some value.
We’ve just taken a motorhome into stock here. And you know, it’s a big motorhome. And it’s got a similar list of accessories to this. And the previous owner spent probably £15,000. Well, we’re going to advertise it at probably £3,000 or £4,000 more than its competitor that hasn’t got any of this stuff on.
And we have had this conversation with the previous keeper and they got it. They understood it. They’ve used it for a year. And now it’s coming to us for sale. But they do make the vehicle more attractive, yes, but they they don’t carry their value.
Keith Gooden
So the answer, Peter, is when you comes to sell it, it’s going to be more attractive for the new buyer, but don’t expect to make money out of it.
Ask Matt your motorhome questions
Keith Gooden
Do you know what, Matt? I think we’ve reached the end of the programme. So how do people get in touch with us?
Matt Sims
In the same way as ever! Go to the website, www.motorhomematt.co.uk/askmatt, where you can ask a question.
There’s loads of information on the podcast. You find all the previous episodes there as well. We’re on YouTube at Motorhome Matt.
While you’re there, make sure you hit subscribe and hit the bell. And we can tell you when new episodes come out. And if you’re listening on Spotify or Apple, we would love it if you’d leave us a five-star review. It makes us all warm and fuzzy and Keith gets very excited.
