Can you tow a car with an A frame in mainland Europe?

Keith Gooden

In today’s episode of the Motorhome Matt podcast…

Matt Sims

We’re investigating if you can actually tow a car on an A frame in mainland Europe.

Keith Gooden

We’re going to get your experiences of doing just that.

Matt Sims

And in the news 2.4 million Brits have been caught out in a post-Brexit passport rule causing confusion.

Keith Gooden

Welcome to the Motorhome Matt podcast. I’m Keith Gooden.

Matt Sims

And I’m Motorhome Matt.

Keith Gooden

Industry insights and expert advice for the world of motorhomes, caravans and campervans. It’s brought to you by www.thatleisureshop.com.

Matt Sims

And do remember to follow on your favourite podcast app. And please do make sure you hit subscribe and the little bell on YouTube – sponsored by www.arobasecreative.co.uk.

Passport rules causing chaos for Brits

Keith Gooden

First of all, as usual, let’s delve into the news, shall we? There’s a bit of confusion over passports – what’s going on?

Matt Sims

So it says here since Brexit, British passports must have an issue date of less than 10 years old on the day of departure from the EU and must have at least three months left before the expiry date on the intended day of return.

Keith Gooden

It’s as simple as that.

Matt Sims

We’ll unpack this in a minute – don’t panic. But millions of passports issued prior to September 2018 have longer validity periods.

Keith Gooden

Now, let us big up the passport office, because people do knock them. But they’ve been doing a nice thing. When you have remembered to renew your passport before it’s expired, what they’ve done is tacked on the difference from your old passport onto your new one.

Matt Sims

Yeah, it’s bit like getting an MOT. 13 month MOT. Have it done early and benefit from that extra time.

Keith Gooden

But what’s happening now in a lot of countries around the world – not just the EU but they’re enforcing it now – is that your passport can’t be more than 10 years old for it to be a valid travel document. So if you’ve got 10 years and nine months on it and you’re trying to travel, you could get turned away.

Matt Sims

So the start date is the really important bit to check on your passport. There must be nine years and nine months left on it at the point you intend to come back home, so the point of departure from the EU. At least nine years, nine months from the start date. That’s the important bit.

And this is where people are getting caught out. They’re looking at the expiry date and going, “Yeah, I’ve got six months left.” Actually, that was 10 years and three months earlier that it could have been registered, but a customs officer is going to look at the start date, the issue date.

Keith Gooden

And it will be different for everybody. That’s the thing to remember. When you renewed your passport, when they tacked on those months or whatever, it’s going to be different for everybody.

Now, it would be easy – I’ve speculated on this – for travel companies and airline companies to have a little link, wouldn’t it, on the booking page, which says, “Check my passport.” And you put your passport and when it was issued and the number in. Because you have to fill it in anyway, don’t you?

Matt Sims

It’d be too easy, though, wouldn’t it?

Keith Gooden

And they’d come back and say whether it was valid or not at the point of travel, but they don’t do that. So it’s up to you to check.

Matt Sims

But there are many countries that want you to have six months. But you said the USA wants a year.

Keith Gooden

When I went to Florida last year they insisted on a year. Now remember, you talk about the States and we talk about America, but you do have at different ports of entry state laws as well.

Matt Sims

Of course.

Keith Gooden

They were insisting that I had a year on my passport.

Matt Sims

But this is catching 2.4 million Brits out. That’s a big number. So make sure you’re not one of them. Check the start date of your passport before you head off if you’re leaving the UK this year.

Keith Gooden

Check, check, check, as they say. It’s in the post. Do you get it?

Matt Sims

Yours is.

Can you tow with an A frame in mainland Europe?

Keith Gooden

It’s the Motorhome Matt podcast. I’m Keith Gooden.

Matt Sims

And I’m Motorhome Matt.

Keith Gooden

And it’s brought to you with www.thatleisureshop.com. Let’s get into the main meat of today’s podcast, Matt – and it’s a biggie!

Matt Sims

You know, I’m really excited about this. I’ve been trying to get Leigh from LNB Towbars onto the podcast for months and months and months. Hopefully, he’s back from one of his many holidays. He’s always on holiday, this guy.

Anyway, he’s coming into the studio today. We were approached by Chris Bassett, who said, “Is the Towmaster 2 A frame system fitted by LNB towbars compliant to tow through Europe?” And this has prompted a long research project for us on this topic.

Keith Gooden

We must say, before you launch into it, LNB aren’t paying for this, okay? This is proper journalism. We’re trying to find out the truth.

Matt Sims

Okay, you can say that! That’s fine. And that’s true. They’re not paying for this. But this has been a discussion that’s gone on for 20 plus years – as long as A frames have been around.

Keith Gooden

So what is the discussion?

Matt Sims

So the discussion is, “Can I use an A frame…” which is the little triangle that attaches to the back of a towbar on a motorhome that enables you to tow a car with nobody in it. The steering wheel just spins and the A frames have had brakes fitted to them and all sorts of technology. The lights on the back of the car light up when you break in the motorhome – “Can I use it in Europe?”

So they’re legal in the UK because it turns the car into a trailer. But the debate has always been, you shouldn’t use one in Europe, but especially in Spain and France. You must put the car on a trailer, a proper flatbed trailer. And that is the only way to take a car into Europe, particularly, as I say, in France and Spain.

Now, I’ve towed a car, a Fiat 500, years ago across Europe, and I’ve done thousands of miles. I’ve never been stopped apart from one occasion when I was going into the Mont Blanc tunnel, and I was told, “Non.” And I had to take the car off.

Keith Gooden

What were you told?

Matt Sims

“Non.”

Keith Gooden

Oh.

Matt Sims

There were a few more words than that.

Keith Gooden

Zut alors.

Matt Sims

It involved a gun on a belt, I’ll be honest. So we kind of went, “Oh.” And we had to pay two tolls. And we think that was the backstory as to why we were being told to take the car off. So luckily, there were three of us in the motorhome.

A friend of mine jumped out. Mark got in the car and drove the car through the tunnel. Needless to say, we got out the other side, put the car back on and carried on on our way home. No further problems. That has happened to me once. I know it’s happened to a few people as well.

But there’s every vlogger, blogger, YouTuber, journalist, commentator, you name it, me included – I’ve stood on stage and said when asked the question, “Can I tow a car on an A frame in Europe?” “Well, yeah, you could try. But my recommendation is you put it on a trailer.” But where does it say that?

Keith Gooden

This is the thing. Now, I am a journalist. I have been for donkey’s years. And you can tell I’m a journalist because I’m the last one into the pub.

Matt Sims

Always the last to pay.

Keith Gooden

With the longest pockets as well. So what we’re going to do today is we’re going to separate opinion from fact. What do we know? What is the law, regardless of what people think? Okay, now, you’ve been talking to somebody about this.

Matt Sims

Yeah. So I rang Leigh from LNB. And yeah, he was on holiday. So we went to the NEC show and I asked Tim Booth, who’s the leisure vehicles officer at NAVCIS for his opinion on this.

Keith Gooden

That’s the National Vehicle Crime Intelligence Service.

Matt Sims

It is indeed, and Tim’s the main man there. He is the head of leisure vehicles at NAVCIS. And I asked him for his comment.

Tim Booth

It’s actually the only fully privately funded police organisation within the UK and work off the back of Hampshire Police. And everybody in there is sponsored. My particular role is sponsored by the caravan industry through an arrangement, which is the Caravan Safety and Security Group. So the partners came together 15 years ago and agreed a funding package and I’ve been in place since then.

Matt Sims

Brilliant. Now, you are used to pulling caravans and motorhomes over as part of your role and inspecting them. And you take a very clear stance on towing frames. And so these are the frames that go on a car that mean the car can be towed by the motorhome without anyone sat in it. What’s the situation from your perspective on using one of these in Europe?

Tim Booth

Europe is where the challenge lies. You have no issues at all within the UK. So don’t be confused that the same for Europe applies in the UK. The connection itself is normally going onto a type approved vehicle. There are rules on vehicle type approval that anything you fit to it must be type approved.

So one, the product is not type approved, so it shouldn’t be fitted. The second issue that’s been raised is the actual means of connection, what they use to connect the actual frame to the slave car, for want of a better term.

Because often that connection, once the towing unit is away, actually creates a danger for other road users and, we believe, the driver and the passenger in the vehicle. Because that vehicle was designed and crash tested without anything beyond the construction of the car.

So if your car is in a collision and it hits a tow mount point or something else, that’s an early collision. The airbags might not realise that that’s happened, so they will not fire. So you are then at risk, and you may not then be insured. So that’s one of the issues for the safety of the people in the car.

The other one is if you’re walking down the footpath, somebody brakes a bit late and collides with you. They’re going to break your leg. And that’s probably the least of your worries, that you’ll break your leg. Probably more serious injuries, because the extension of the vehicle fixed to has gone in front of the original safe zone of the car.

Matt Sims

So you’re talking about the fittings on the front bumper of the car. There might be a crossbar on the front or two clamps sticking out of the front of it. But can I tow it on its frame on the back of my motorhome on its tow hitch? So I’m dragging it behind like an obedient dog? Can I use that in Europe?

Tim Booth

No.

Matt Sims

Why not?

Tim Booth

I’ve consulted with a lot of officers in Europe and particularly an officer in the Dutch police. Their view is that a car is born as a car and type approved as a car. You can’t change a car to a trailer just by fastening something to the front of it. His view was, you can’t make an orange into an apple.

So are you actually insured for that combination? Is it an insurable compensation? Because if it’s illegal, it’s not an insured combination. Most European officers that I’ve spoken to who see that combination say they will get the people using it to detach.

Now, if that’s a couple, then you’re fine because your partner may then be able to drive the car for you, and you leave the assembly behind. But if as often happens you’re a single traveller, what do you now do with your car and with the towing assembly that was on the front of it?

Matt Sims

Well, that certainly would be an issue. Absolutely. But in the UK, the car is considered a trailer under UK law and the police don’t care about it. But you’re saying that’s different in Europe. It’s not considered a trailer?

Tim Booth

They don’t take that view. There have been various arguments that say if it’s legal in this country, it must be in that.

Matt Sims

Yeah, that’s what people say to me.

Tim Booth

I am told that that does not roll over in this case, because you’re actually breaching the type approval regulations.

Matt Sims

So there is no tow frame that can be used legally in Europe?

Tim Booth

Not that’s been identified to me. Not that I’ve ever seen on any road check. And one of the other things that’s a consideration which has been raised at parliamentary level now is everybody talks about this unit going forwards, or the effects of the vehicle travelling forwards.

Nobody’s looked at what happens if you get a rear end shunt into the car that is being towed. And there is no protection in the assembly for that eventuality. In fact, if you look at the structure, it would collapse significantly and probably go directly into the rear of the motorhome. If it was type approved, then it’s been suggested to me that those sorts of issues would have been looked at and addressed.

Clearly it’s not been type approved, so they haven’t been. So the danger is that your holiday could be significantly disrupted if you are over in Europe with that combination and the police officers on duty decide that you’re going to be… well, they call it a control over there. If you’re going to be controlled through one of their checks and they find that, you’ll have to leave it behind.

Matt Sims

So the advice then is to put the car in a trailer and tow a trailer with the car on. But is that considered acceptable because the trailer is type approved as a trailer?

Tim Booth

That’s exactly it. It’s a skeletal trailer. You put it onto the skeletal trailer. That trailer is approved by the manufacturer. So once the car’s on there, you comply with the legislation.

Matt Sims

That was Tim Booth, the leisure vehicles officer at NAVCIS. Now, we’re delighted to welcome Mr. Leigh Bryant onto the podcast, the owner of LNB Towbars. Hi, Leigh! How are you doing?

Leigh Bryant

Hi, Matt, thank you for having me.

Matt Sims

You’re very welcome. It’s been a long time coming.

Leigh Bryant

Yes.

Matt Sims

You’re a very busy man. You’re always on holiday.

Leigh Bryant

That’s the name of the game that we’re in.

Matt Sims

True enough, true enough.

Keith Gooden

Now before we bring Lee in for his expertise, Tim Booth mentioned legislation, but not at the beginning. So at the end of the interview, Matt, he said that’s what the legislation requires. But at the beginning of the interview, he said that he’d spoken to somebody who he knows in the Dutch police and didn’t mention legislation. And this is the problem here, isn’t it? A lot of people think things. A lot of people have opinions, but actually finding the law on this has proved very difficult.

Matt Sims

It has, and this is a case of opinion versus law, I think. And for years and years and years, people have been airing opinion based on some experiences. Perhaps they’ve been stopped and been told, “That’s not compliant. You can’t do that in this country.” And then that kind of becomes an unwritten law – the context by which we then accept the facts.

So I think the reality is in the UK, a car is turned into a trailer when it’s on an A frame. Leigh, jump in and correct me here. And that’s the case. But Leigh, as the manufacturer of these A frames – the Towmaster 2 you claim is compliant in Europe. Why is it compliant in Europe?

Leigh Bryant

Well, first of all, Matt, it’s important that you are legal here in the UK. To do that we have to comply with a number of legislations, the braking directives, the lighting regulations and things like that. And once you comply with all of these legislations and are legal here in the UK, then just like a lorry towing a trailer or whatever, you’re going to have cross border traffic.

And if that traffic is, for instance a UK citizen holidaying for less than six months at a time, then you would be classed as a vehicle in international traffic under the Vienna Convention 1968. And therefore, the laws that are applicable to you here in the UK should be honoured in the European country that you’re travelling through.

Keith Gooden

Now, you say the Vienna Convention. And let’s be very clear on this. This was 1968, or ’69 I think, that you’re quoting, wasn’t it? That’s before we even had the vote to go into the EU. So we can’t blame Brexit for any changes since.

And as far as we know, there are no laws. We used to have an old thing when I went to the BBC, if it’s an unwritten law, it’s not a law because it hasn’t been written. We are a bit I suppose foggy on which countries have laws and which don’t. We haven’t actually been able to find any, have we?

Matt Sims

We haven’t. That’s the point.

Keith Gooden

Any laws on the statute books in those countries.

Matt Sims

I asked Fliss the trailer lady to give us a view on this, and she very kindly contacted the Camping and Caravanning Club. Ian Hewlett is their technical manager at the company gambling club. And Ian said this. “The Department for Transport are clear. The rules that apply in the UK are not covered in Europe.

What we understand is most EU countries have licensed breakdown services. And therefore, you are not allowed to tow a car with a car in any circumstances. That does blur a bit with larger motorhomes over three and a half times. But I would still expect the law enforcement officer to fine the driver and make them disconnect the tow car.

It’s worth noting this is not covered by the Vienna Convention of 1968 as an A frame towing system was not even introduced at that point. It was introduced after the Treaty was agreed to.” Ian went on to say, “It’s very difficult to find actual legislation in Europe. But it’s fair to say unless it’s laid down in law, it is illegal, as we in the UK are the opposite.”

Keith Gooden

Now, can I jump in there? Because he’s saying if it’s not a law, it’s illegal. If there’s not a law, it can’t be illegal, because there’s not a law. There’s no law. And this is what I think confuses a lot of people and confuses me. We haven’t been able to find any legislation in any country that we’ve looked at that actually says it’s illegal to use an A frame. Leigh, can you jump in here for us? Do you know of anything?

Leigh Bryant

Certainly not. And with regards to the Vienna Convention predisposing or having an earlier date than what we’re discussing, they do have the opportunity to add annexes or amendments to that legislation as well.

Keith Gooden

And they haven’t changed it?

Leigh Bryant

And it hasn’t changed. That’s what’s important.

Matt Sims

So Leigh, I want to reference something Tim Booth said in my interview with him, that an A frame isn’t type approved. The car is type approved as a car. The motorhome is type approved as a motorhome.

But the A frame isn’t type approved. But there is no type approval for an A frame. And Tim is saying you can’t attach anything to a vehicle that’s type approved. It doesn’t mean you can’t attach something that doesn’t have a type of approval to apply for, does it?

Keith Gooden

Can you just explain that again, the type approval? The type approval for the type approval isn’t a type approval, unless there’s a type approval. Have I got that right?

Matt Sims

The motorhome’s type approved as a motorhome, the car is type approved as a car. And what Tim saying is you can’t put anything between them that isn’t type approved. But there is no type approval to apply for.

Leigh Bryant

I should also add that towbar itself is actually type approved as well.

Matt Sims

That’s very true.

Leigh Bryant

But yeah, you’re right, the A frame is not type approved. And for many years, I’ve had lots of conversations and backwards and forwards with the VCA, the body that’s responsible for type approval in the UK, about having an A frame type approved.

They point blank refused and say it’s not required, because an A frame doesn’t come into a classification that requires type approval. And therefore you can’t get type approval on something that it’s not required for. So they can’t issue it because it’s not required.

Matt Sims

And what about Tim’s point about rear end shunt? If someone drives into the back of the car whilst it’s attached to the motorhome, the A frame is going to collapse – that’s not any different to a trailer, is it?

Leigh Bryant

Exactly. If you had a car on a trailer and somebody went into the back of it, exactly the same thing would happen. Yeah,

Matt Sims

Interesting. So the key thing, though, is to be compliant and legal in the UK. Talk to me about braking, because the rules changed for tow car breaking in 2014. What are the rules now?

Leigh Bryant

So that’s UNECE regulation 13, the braking directive. This directive is very complicated because it’s not written for tow car A frame. It’s written to cover trailers, everything from your small little camping trailer up to your 40 tonne lorry. So there are various parts of it that are relevant to tow cars on A frames and some of it is similar to that required of lorries because of the axles being greater than a meter apart.

So some people say, “Well, why can you have for instance, an inertia system on a caravan and that’s okay, but on an A frame, it might not be because it won’t meet the criteria?” Well, the reason is that the criteria is different if the axles are greater than meter apart.

Caravan axles are closer. So there are all sorts of small parts of that legislation that apply to A frame towing. You must achieve a braking efficiency of over 50% on all four wheels. If it’s got any kind of power assisted brakes, i.e., vacuum servo, then it must be operable. You’re not allowed to have any control of the braking from the cab of the towing vehicle. So you can’t adjust it up or down or anything like that.

Matt Sims

Let me just stop you there. So adjusting the brakes in the cab is an American feature, isn’t it? Often RVs have the ability. They’re often towing big weights behind them. Hummers, for example, or stuff that’s heavier than that. And you can dial in more braking or tune it out. That is not recognised as compliant or even legal in the UK.

Leigh Bryant

Correct. It’s not that there’s anything wrong with the systems at all. It’s just that in America, they do things differently. They have to do their own due diligence to make sure they didn’t get sued and stuff. Whereas in Europe, we have these legislations, so we have to tick the boxes to make sure that we comply with everything they ask. And I guess the reason they don’t want that control in the cab is in case you get it wrong, adjust it up or down too much.

Matt Sims

So just explain how you achieve vacuum servo assisted brakes being operable when the engine of the car isn’t running.

Leigh Bryant

That’s a good question. So when the engine of the car is running normally, the engine itself is sucking air out of the vacuum servo. So with the engine not running, we need a system, which is part of our electronic braking system that we fit when we do our installs, that every time the brake is applied it then uses a compressor to suck air out of the vacuum servo to recharge, if you like, the vacuum in the servo so that every time you brake, you get the full efficiency out of the brakes as if you were driving the car normally.

Matt Sims

Okay, so at least 80%.

Leigh Bryant

Yes.

Matt Sims

Brilliant. So the key here, Leigh, is that we’re not allowed to use A frames that are purely a recovery device in mainland Europe because they’ve licensed companies that do that, which is what Ian is referring to from the Camping and Caravanning Club. What you’re installing is far more excessive than that.

It’s an A frame with electrics that are attaching to the car’s lights. So when you brake, the brake lights on the car come on. You’re also adapting the brakes so they’re being 80% efficient and the A frame is obviously safe, and so on. So it’s a far more complicated install than simply just attaching the frame to the car, hitching on the tow bar, and off you go.

Keith Gooden

It’s not like recovering. That’s the point you’re making. These recovery companies in mainland Europe are licensed, and in order that their services are protected, some people say that you then can’t attach your car to the back of your motorhome. But as you’re saying, you’ve got lights, you’ve got brakes and all that. It’s not the same as just recovering a broken down car and towing it off the motorway, is it?

Matt Sims

And so therefore Leigh, what you’re saying is there’s no law written to say we can’t do this. So therefore it’s compliant in the UK. Therefore, through the Vienna Convention, yes, although introduced before A frames existed, it allows us to use them in Europe. But what do you give a customer to enable them to show that policeman with a gun on his belt to explain that?

Leigh Bryant

That’s a good point, and just coming back to recovery towing, that is the difference. And what we’re trying to make the authorities in Europe understand is that this isn’t a recovery device. This isn’t a temporary A frame system. We’ve properly converted that car into a trailer, category A2 trailer, and recognised as such by the UK Department for Transport.

What we then do is provide letters to help with translation barriers, I guess, in Europe, that could be in French, German, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, etc., and indeed in English as well so customers know what they say, which explains the legislation that we comply with, how we’ve adapted the car, why we’re a category A2 trailer, and this is accepted as such in the UK. And we also point out that under the powers of the Vienna Convention, the combination of vehicles is legal in their state because it’s also legal here in the UK.

Matt Sims

And that’s the key, isn’t it? It’s recognised in the UK, therefore, it’s recognised in mainland Europe because we’re on holiday. We’re not living there. If we were registering the vehicle to be registered in Spain, different story.

Leigh Bryant

Yes. If the vehicle’s registered in Spain, for instance, or you lived in Spain, you wouldn’t be under the powers of the Vienna Convention. And you would be under their local laws. If their local laws do not recognise a tow car and A frame as a category A2 trailer, then it would be of course illegal for you to tow it there.

Keith Gooden

Right. Okay. So that has cleared it up. We can’t find the specific legislation from any country. So if you are listening or watching from mainland Europe and you have got legal training and you can clarify it for us, then please get in contact.

We’re maintaining that it complies with UK law and therefore if it doesn’t, you’re a visitor, then you’re going to be complying for the short term stay in Europe. And most of what we’re talking about with regard to A frames and trailers in motorhoming is opinion. But what do you do if you get over there and you get stopped?

Matt Sims

Well, yeah, and the policeman stopping you like the one who stopped me has got a gun on his belt. I mean, what do you do? Do I wave my bit of German translated paperwork at him and say, “Look, read this, pal. I’ll open the bonnet and show you my vacuum pump.” What am I going to do?

Leigh Bryant

Well, an ideal solution is exactly that! You want to try to help them understand what it is you’ve got. So if it was me, I would certainly show them the international traffic letter. I’d also try to show them the triangles on the back and explained that it’s a trailer and show them the braking system working and the lights working and things so they understand it’s operating 100% as a trailer and it’s not just recovery device.

So it’s firstly trying to get that message across. And ultimately, I guess if you couldn’t get that message across, if it was me, I would ask to be dealt with at a police station rather than at the side of the road, where you may find that you get a fairer result from a police station than maybe trying to convince one person who may have an opinion of their own at the side of the road.

Keith Gooden

Because on the spot fines are a big thing in Europe, particularly when it comes to tourists, aren’t they?

Matt Sims

They absolutely can be. And, you know, we’ve had people reporting into us after an appeal on Facebook for some comment that the policeman took a cash fine off them and went off with it. Well, maybe that’s true. But you should be getting a receipt for a fine. In fact, we’ve got some feedback from people in a rather large Facebook group that’s all about using an A frame in Europe. We’re going to read a few out.

Matt Sims

Phil Watson on Facebook said, “We’ve been towing throughout the EU and into Turkey every year since 2016. The only country we’ve ever been stopped due to the A frame is Germany. Twice in all this time we were escorted off the motorway to a safe location and the vehicle was inspected.”

“On both occasions they inspected our V5 and on each occasion referred to the 750 kilogramme unbraked part, which is the point at which I explained that it’s an electronic system and works in tandem with the breaking of the towing vehicle. On both occasions, the police have explained that the system was acceptable, but had it been mechanical, they would have not have accepted it and made me unhook and drive.”

“Both sets of police on each occasion also told me that in German law, it wasn’t allowed for nationals or others resident in the country. But as it was allowed in the UK, our system was okay.” This is the point we were making earlier, wasn’t it, about being on holiday.

“Our insurance approved the conversion and insurance of the van and the tow car and provided a green card,” which of course is not needed anymore, “For Turkey with allowance for use in all EU states.”

Keith Gooden

Well, there you go. I mean, that’s an answer to some of the points that you’ve already brought up. And as I said before, what we want you to do is if you know different and if you can point to legislation, then please point us in that direction.

Matt Sims

Yes, absolutely.

Audience Experiences

Keith Gooden

It’s the Motorhome Matt podcast. I’m Keith Gooden.

Matt Sims

And I’m Motorhome Matt.

Keith Gooden

It’s brought to you with www.thatleisureshop.com. We’ve already heard from Phil Watson on Facebook and his experiences. Let’s hear some more now. Peter Hake is in Chichester. He says, “I’ve never been stopped but we were stared at by a traffic officer in Salamanca last week.” Could have been your lucky night.

“We were in a jam caused by routine inspections. He was on foot and looking at the rig. As I looked back, he smiled and waved – the only incident of thousands of miles of towing in Europe.” Well, Peter, was that an incident?

Matt Sims

Not really, was it? What was he staring at? His beautiful wife, maybe?

Keith Gooden

He could well have been, couldn’t he? Polly Rimmer is in Wakefield. “We were stopped on our way to Santiago de Compostela in Spain, towing a Fiat 500 on an A frame. The policeman told us it was illegal in Spain to tow a car with the wheels rolling along the ground.”

“We were fined €100 and given a receipt, so everything was okay. He asked how long we were going to be in Spain and told us that if we produced the receipt of payment, we wouldn’t be fined again. After we paid he waved us on and the tow car was still attached.”

“We were some time later involved in a farmers’ blockade between Seville and Granada – static for eight hours. Police and traffic everywhere. The police were interested in the towing setup, and a few of them gave us the thumbs up and big smiles after a quick look and no fine. Towing the car made me anxious about being stopped again.”

“Although in truth, the €100 fine was much cheaper than buying or hiring a trailer. Not sure that I would tow in Europe again,” says Polly Rimmer. And this thing. It’s down to what that man who’s wearing the gun thinks at the time.

Matt Sims

Yeah, absolutely, whether he’s going to fine you, tell you to take the car off… what are you going to do? I mean, it’s great having this documentation from you, Leigh, in every language, but what are you going to do if the policeman is telling you to take the car off?

Leigh Bryant

Well, I guess in that circumstance, the reality is you’re going to take the path of least resistance, or at least most people would. I will say that we’ve been fitting hundreds of these systems every year for numerous years now.

And in all of the years we’ve been doing it we’ve been giving the same advice to all of our customers so they’re well informed before they travel. And we don’t get reports from our customers saying that they’ve been stopped at all. If that was the case, our phones would literally be ringing off and people would be saying, “You’ve given us this advice and we’re having a problem.”

So I’m guessing that the problem of being stopped is less than is maybe made of in media. I don’t know. But certainly that’s our experience with the equipment that we install and our customers, but of course, I can’t speak for everybody’s systems. So there may be people who are using the wrong type of systems, maybe recovery devices, who are getting stopped as well. So you need to bear that in mind.

Keith Gooden

Thanks, Polly, for that. Polly’s In Wakefield.

Keith Gooden

Ron Mitchell is in Edinburgh. “Hi, Matt. I’ve got an Auto Trail Comanche and currently tow a 2021 Ford Fiesta. My wife and I have previously towed a Peugeot 107 and a Peugeot 108. All three cars have been towed all over France, Spain and Portugal on several occasions, covering about 22,000 miles.”

“We’ve only ever had one problem, and that was a few years ago travelling home from Portugal through Spain on a dual carriageway just north of Salamanca at about 11:30am. And we were stopped by the police.”

It’s a long story, but what transpired is one policeman was saying that it was illegal and was going to fine them €200. The other policeman who was sat in the car started laughing. And then the policeman said, “Well, I could reduce it to €100.”

“After another 10 minutes studying the documentation and looking over the rig, I told them I wasn’t paying anything and we should just go to the police station, get a formal interpreter and speak with his superiors.”

“Now, the driver in the car, not the one who stopped me, was still laughing, and the interrogator just turned towards me…” Interrogator? “Gave everything back and said I was free to go. Most people would have just paid up the cash, but being a miserable Scotsman, I just couldn’t do that without putting up a fight,” says Ron Mitchell in Edinburgh. What’s developing here is that people get stopped, but actually, nothing much happens.

Matt Sims

There are a lot of people getting stopped around Salamanca.

Keith Gooden

So Leigh, what do you make of that one, then?

Leigh Bryant

Well, that’s good, I guess if nothing came of it in the end and he stood his ground. But like I say, I think it’s down to the person on the day and their understanding of what it is you’re doing and what you’re towing, and the understanding that it is a trailer – that it’s properly converted into a trailer and not just towing a car on a recovery device.

Keith Gooden

And finally, Pete Whyler’s in Lincoln. “We have travelled in France, Spain, and Portugal with an A frame towed car. We had no problems from police at all. They usually look and just wave us on.” So is there really a problem here? Or is it just pub talk?

Matt Sims

It’s interesting, isn’t it? Because as I said earlier, everybody on stage who I see giving advice on this all say – and I include myself in this, I’ve been guilty of this, “Well, on the continent, you should put the car on a trailer.” And yes, sure, that’s going to guarantee you’re never going to have a problem, because you can put the car on a trailer. And it’s worth stating as well that you do sell trailers as well!

Leigh Bryant

Absolutely! So if it’s your choice not to tow on an A frame, or you don’t want to take the risk and you’re going to go to Europe a lot, then absolutely, if it makes you feel more comfortable, put your car on a trailer. We’d be happy to sell you a trailer!

Matt Sims

Of course you would! But the biggest hassle there is you’ve three vehicles to juggle then when you get to the campsite. You’ve got the motorhome, the car and the trailer. You’re not the campsite best friend when you pull in because you’ve got to park three vehicles. It’s really convenient towing a car on an A frame – until you want to go backwards, I have to say. You can’t, basically. So that’s when a trailer is beneficial.

But I’ve stood on stage and said the only way to do this is to put it on a trailer or take a chance. And I’ve heard this said over and over and over. And we’ve had it from the Club. We’ve had it from Tim as well. And this is the advice, and it’s fair advice. But where is it written down that you can’t do it? That’s the point, isn’t it, Keith? And we can’t find it.

Keith Gooden

No, we can’t find it. And as I’ve said earlier on in this podcast, if you know, please get in touch. Are we dealing here with urban myth, received wisdom? What we seem to have developed in this country is a huge risk aversion.

Matt Sims

Yes, we have. We’ve said this before, too. We’re a group of people who love a rule. And we want to be on the right side of it. We don’t want to break the rules. We want to know what the rules are.

Leigh Bryant

We want to comply with the law.

Matt Sims

Yeah, it’s always a minority, particularly in this industry who will break the rules. But we want to be on the right side of it. I think that’s the problem. There isn’t a rule that clarifies this for us. It’s not a recovery device.

My A frame that I’ve got is now out of date. It’s only got overrun breaks. It hasn’t got any of your clever vacuum pump adaptions. So that wouldn’t be compliant. Well, I know that. So I shouldn’t use it anymore. And we don’t use it anymore. But what is the rule that’s written down? And as Keith said, if you’re a barrister in Spain and you know the answer to this, we’d love to hear from you!

Because on behalf of our whole industry and those of us who like to have the option of towing a car with wheels rolling on the road, what are the rules? We’re quoting the Vienna Convention. That’s what you hang your coat on as it were, Leigh. And that seems reasonable to me, with all the adaptations that you make to the car.

Whilst it doesn’t change the type approval of the car, it does make it compliant to be a trailer here in the UK, and under the Vienna Convention that means it’s accepted on mainland Europe. So I guess for you the listener, you have a choice. You can tow your own car on an A frame, or you can put it on a trailer. It really is up to you, the listener, to decide for yourself.

Keith Gooden

And Leigh will sell you both!

Matt Sims

Very happily! Leigh, thank you so much for coming on. I think this has been useful. Has it been helpful?

Keith Gooden

I think so. At the very least, we’ve clarified that we can’t find a law!

Matt Sims

We’ve clarified more confusion!

Leigh Bryant

I think as well, Matt, it’s where people are afraid of actually being confronted, because we don’t really get that very much in the UK. So policemen don’t stop us generally for anything other than speeding. So the fear of being confronted by a police officer abroad is a big thing for a lot of people, and again may steer them down one path or another.

Keith Gooden

Yeah, because people want to comply with the law, as we’ve just said.

Matt Sims

Yes. And we fear police officers, and rightly so.

Keith Gooden

We don’t necessarily fear them. We just don’t want to get entangled in the law unnecessarily.

Matt Sims

True. That’s the point. And we don’t want to get on the wrong side of it.

Keith Gooden

We absolutely don’t.

Matt Sims

We don’t want to get in trouble. So if you’ve got an opinion on this, we’d love to hear from you. No doubt this debate and pub talk will go on for many years to come until such time as I suppose an A frame gets type approval, I guess.

Leigh Bryant

Or banned altogether!

Keith Gooden

But there’s the final word from Leigh Bryant from LNB Towbars. You can find them online. What is your website address, Leigh?

Leigh Bryant

It’s www.lnbtowbars.co.uk.

Keith Gooden

So there you go. If the conversation is happening in the pub or the club or on the campsite, let’s hope that you’re quoting this particular podcast.

Matt Sims

Do share with people. It’s a really interesting debate. Leigh, I’m really grateful to you for coming on. I’ve genuinely been looking forward to this conversation for some time – unsurprisingly, we haven’t reached a definitive output for this!

And it is about consumer choice, isn’t it, and people taking their own decision on what they want to do – and their own view of risk, I suppose, of being stopped whilst on mainland Europe. So thank you, Leigh, for coming in.

Ask Matt your questions

Matt Sims

If you’ve got a question or contribution to this topic or to any topic – a question on anything to do with motorhomes, campervans or caravans, we’d love to hear it. You can go to mhmp.info/askmatt. Please hit the orange button and record it. We love getting your voice on the podcast – and tell us where you are! But if you are too shy to do that, you can fill in the form at mhmp.info/askmatt.

Keith Gooden

And you can also subscribe on YouTube, can’t you, Matt?

Matt Sims

Yes, we would love it if you do. Loads of you are watching us on YouTube and not subscribing! Subscribing really helps us spread the word of the podcast. So hit the subscribe button, hit the bell and then YouTube will tell you when a new episode is published. And YouTube of course is brought to you by the lovely guys at www.arobasecreative.co.uk.